Q & A With Sant Darshan Singh Dhakki

(Definitions of Eastern terminology or phrases listed at end)

The following conversations being of a private one on one nature, were not something that I was ever intending to share publicly. Circumstances have changed, at this time the spiritual personality central to this letter - Baba Darshan Singh, known to his devotees simply as Babaji - has been placed in jail in Punjab, India as a result of his refusal to endorse and support the current political leadership in the state of Punjab (India). Efforts are being made worldwide to raise awareness of the current situation in Punjab in the hope of freeing the young mystic (he's 34). This letter at the request of some of his devotees in India and in the West is a part of those efforts.

The following is an excerpt of conversations with Babaji late during the evenings, over a period of approx. a week in order to get deeper insights or confirmation on various points of understanding,

Q. How long have you been on the spiritual path?
A. Since childhood, I was always drawn to God. Then at age 12 I left home and traveled around India, and kept the company of many saints of different religions. I got a chance to study the insights of all the different religions to realize that they're all coming from the same one God.

(Note: The logo of Babaji's organization is an emblem with the symbols of 4 of the major world religions with the Ik Oangkaar symbol in the middle to illustrate that the one God is the origin of all religions).


Q. How long did you remain wandering before you found what you were looking for?
A. At age 25 I went to Dhakki Sahib, which is a jungle near Ludhiana, and went into intense meditation for a year. During that year I wasn't very aware of my external reality. (He didn’t eat any solid food the whole year, taking very small amounts of either water or milk every few days).

Q. What did you experience within during that one year of intense tapasaya?
A. That everything is within myself.

Q. What happened after that?
A. After that I received my hukam (spiritual command/will of God) of what role I was to play in the years to come. In 1984 there was a great saint who wrote down everything that was to occur starting from Dhakki Sahib. At that time no one could inhabit Dhakki Sahib, since on the spiritual plane, it is the residence of a number of Mahatamas (completely enlightened souls). People had tried to cultivate it for farming and failed miserably. Passing army officers would try to take pieces of wood to start a fire and go blind or be unable to find their way out until they returned the wood. The only people who could take wood from the jungle were the genuinely poor who were in need. This saint wrote that a young man will come here in 1989 and do a lot of tapasaya (intense spiritual austerities such as prolonged meditation) at this site, making it habitable for spiritual devotees and a center for humanitarian projects. He wrote in great detail that there would be horses and elephants here, along with thousands of people, that kirtan (spiritual songs) would be sung and Gurbani (the main Sikh scripture) would be recited 24 hours a day. This saint said that he would be leaving his body soon, and requested his disciples to pass on the manuscript to the young man in question, detailing the time to find him, his whereabouts, and appearance. In 1989 his disciples came to me and gave me that manuscript, which details my hukam. Part of it has already come to pass, another part has yet to occur and includes works in many foreign nations.

Q. What is the role of these Mahatamas that you say inhabit Dhakki Sahib?
A. Look upon it like this, the Mahatamas (enlightened souls on the spiritual plane) do their spiritual work through the Atma (soul which is in human form). So the Atma has to go through a lot of preparation first before that can occur, the ego has to be diluted through spiritual disciplines. The Atma gets it's hukam from the Mahatamas, and the Mahatamas in turn get their hukam directly from Paramatama (God/the Infinite). That's the flow of command from the relative viewpoint, but from the absolute viewpoint, these 3 are really one and the same since everything is God.

Q. Gurbani (main Sikh scripture) says that the world reality is actually just a projected appearance by God within His consciousness just like our dreams at night which seem to be intensely real, but which turn out to be completely non-existent when we wake up in the morning. Gurbani says again and again that we should wake up from this jagrat state (waking dream) to the 4th state (Turiya which is the source substance of the first three and the sole reality). You've meditated and experienced that everything is inside yourself, not on the outside, that it's all truly just a dream within your own consciousness. So why then do you do all these charitable projects such as the blood camps, de-addiction centers, why do you run around for so many hours each day giving so many discourses at so many different Gurdwaras, when you know none of this really exists, no one is really suffering and no one is really helped, that it's all a dream as Gurbani states. Why do you do something instead of nothing?

A. It's completely true that all this is just a dream in reality, it doesn't really exist, but I do what I do for 3 reasons. First of all it's my hukam to do whatever I'm doing. Secondly, I like the role I've been given, I'm able to help others within this dream, it's a good role. And thirdly due to the love of the people in the dream. But the most important of the three is the hukam. None of this exists outside, the whole world is a dream within just like the seemingly intense physical solidity of the world in your own dreams at night, but still the most important thing to do in this dream is to honor and follow God's hukam. In truth everyone is following God's hukam, everyone without exception is doing exactly what God wants them to, but 99% of the people are unaware of this, you can't even have the thought that makes you take a certain action or take a breath without God's hukam. The whole universe exists and is in motion by Wahe Guru's (God's) hukam alone.

(Note: The above point stated by the true mystics of all diverse spiritual paths consistently throughout the centuries is illustrated in a very compelling manner in the movie THE MATRIX, which is metaphysically very accurate on the spiritual front except on two points. In the movie what you wake up to - by the deliberate design of the writers - is bondage, creating the conflict necessary in a movie drama. However in the realm of spirituality according to Gurbani and all the true mystics, what you wake up to is the highest good, being that infinite consciousness (Wahe Guru) which is your real Self and the one true Self of all. In the movie the central character alone is the One, but in the realm of spirituality, according to all the true mystics everyone and everything is the One being. The 4 states of existence are: jagrat the waking dream whereby we dream with our eyes open, the sleeping dream at night whereby we dream with our eyes closed, dreamless sleep whereby we rest without any dream, and finally awakening also known as turiya which is the substratum and source substance of the first three just as an ocean is the substratum of all waves within it).

Q. If your hukam is to be tortured on a red hot plate, as was the case with one of our Gurus, does it physically hurt and do you feel pain while you're for example also being poked all over your body with burning red hot irons?
A. No, because of your surrender to the will of God, it feels very sweet.

Q. If you're following your hukam to provide dream help for dream people with dream suffering, why aren't there more enlightened saints to do the same?
A. If everything was made of gold, it would no longer have any value. Scarcity is what makes something valuable. God wants his truth to be of the highest value.

Q. Right now we're supposedly in the Kaal Yug (age of darkness, one of the 4 ages), if and when the Saatch Yug (age of light/truth) comes, does that mean everything is good or there's still a mixture?
A. If everything is good, how would you know what was good? If everything was bad, how would you know what was bad? The four yugs (ages) don't occur in a linear fashion one after the other. All four are always in motion at exactly the same time, however one is always a bit more dominant than the others. Hence in the Kal Yug the darkness is dominant but you also have some saatch (light/truth/wisdom), and in the Saatch Yug you will also have some kal (darkness/ignorance), but the saatch will be dominant. Right now the kal is dominant, but it doesn't last.

Q. What's the purpose of all this creation?
A. It's all God's play. God throws you out within Himself (here Babaji flicks his finger as though flicking a small marble ball away) and then says "Find me" (here Babaji illustrates the point by at the same time urging the ball to return to him with a motion of his fingers). And all this is leela (God's eternal play) that's going on infinitely and spontaneously without intention, It's God playing and expressing Himself in infinite different roops (forms).

(Because God doesn't need a reason to do anything and has nothing to achieve or purpose to fulfill, or else he wouldn't be God. Everything is the spontaneous eternal play of the Infinite for Self-expression and Self-experience).

Q. Even the purest souls have conflicts, and God is even in those who conflict with them. How would you sum up the purpose of conflict within the universe?
A. (Here Babaji holds up two fingers of one hand, and in front of them raises up two fingers of the other hand putting them in front of each other and says): If there's no opposition team, there's no match.

Q. I don't perceive you as a Sikh, but rather as a soul - a bubble of consciousness that happens to be in a Sikh body. If it were God's hukam (will/command), he could have just as easily put you in a Hindu or Muslim family and you'd now be singing Hindu or Islamic spiritual songs instead and have a different appearance and set of mannerisms. So why did God put you in the Sikh form, and what's the purpose at this time. Sikhism had it's 10 Gurus, after them it devolved into organized religion which is a very diluted reflection of what the Gurus stood for, there hasn't been any enlightened saint on a large scale after them that I've heard of. So why did God put you in a Sikh form at this time?
A. Because the Sikh path has been down for long enough, it's God's hukam that it now rise. On the spiritual plane Gurbani (main Sikh scripture) is a very very high truth and tremendously revered. Here it's not recognized for It's true greatness and depth, and It's God's will that it be known for what it truly is.

Q. Considering that all this is a dream, and that in the dream recognition of the truth is what helps you wake up, on a personal level I'm not affected or inspired by the fact that you have horses, elephants, thousands of followers, etc at Dhakki Sahib. So what purpose does all that show on the outside serve?
A. In Punjab, the Sikh psyche has been crushed by many years of defeats and ongoing injustice, leaving very little pride in the masses for their spiritual history or path. All this show merely inspires pride in their own culture, taking them to a certain point until they mature spiritually and realize what they're looking for is within themselves. All this on the outside is Raj Yoga (the royal path, playing the role of a king) but it doesn't really mean anything in and of itself, the real jewel for each person is always within. But this apparent grandeur on the outside raises their pride in their own culture, which is necessary for them to first take their path seriously enough before they will actually walk down it. What inspires people in India will not be what inspires people elsewhere, every country is a little different and the need differs also, the doctor has to adapt his medicine to the needs of the patient. But all this show at Dhakki Sahib on the outside has happened spontaneously by God's hukam.

Q. It's my understanding that God projects the field of Maya (the world illusion) within Himself, then projects all the individual souls also within Himself, and that these supposedly individual souls are in reality never separate from Wahe Guru (God), but when placed in a body with limited senses and a mind, they forget their true nature and think they are separate beings so that all the dramas can be enjoyed with greater intensity. Is it true that God and the Atma are always one, never separate at any time and that in reality all bondage or suffering is only due to a lack of perception or realization on this front?
A. It's true that the Atma (individualized soul in a body) and Paramatama (God) are always one, there is never any separation, but the Atma is made to forget this truth via ignorance and has to go through various disciplines to realize it's true nature. God is in each person, but God isn't Maya (the world illusion which appears to be real via ignorance).

Q. Yes, but isn't it true that the very shakti (life force) in the field of Maya is none other than Paramatama (God/the Infinite)? That in truth God is the very source substance of the field of Maya, but in that instance God is simply appearing in a different form?
A. Yes, that's true, it is God, but the roop (form) is different. Everything and everyone is God, but appearing in a different roop.

Q. Is it true that the only veiling curtain between man and God is the thoughts of the mind alone since God is one, but the thoughts of the mind always perceive things in terms of diverse contrasts (such as good or bad, cold or hot, rich and poor) instead of recognizing the unity of everything at the source substance level?
A. Yes, Wahe Guru (God) is everywhere, but because of the mann (mind) thinking 'meh' ('me' or 'I'), the ego is formed which perceives reality as separation and diversity (instead of recognizing everything as one, the mind makes the soul perceive everything inside the body as 'I', and everything outside as 'you' or 'them'). This hides the true reality. When the mind is purified and made transparent through simran (making the mind one pointed on God), then the underlying reality of Wahe Guru (God) is recognized as the sole reality. Dualistic thoughts (seeing things as separate and distinct) are the veiling curtain that hide God from our awareness even though He's everywhere.

Q. When the eyes are closed and the mind is emptied of thoughts for even only 5 seconds, even though you're not thinking and the mind is empty for a short while, there's still a very subtle but clear awareness that you exist which seems to have it's center in the heart rather than the mind, That subtle awareness or consciousness of existing is colorless, formless, and very calm and seems to be never changing or moving, until thoughts are projected upon It, like a movie projected on a screen. It's the easiest thing in the world to lose one's balance by getting mixed up in the movies created by one's thoughts, but going back to the root awareness in those moments seems to have an instantly centering and balancing effect, because even in the middle of even intensely happy or unhappy experiences, looking within with the mind empty even for only a few seconds, that very subtle awareness that one exists still seems to be perfectly calm and completely still and in peace. So what I wanted to ask was, is this neverchanging subtle awareness that you still exist when you have no thoughts even for a few seconds Wahe Guru, is it your real Self?
A. Yes, that awareness or consciousness within your heart is Wahe Guru (the Infinite), but what you're experiencing is a small glimpse of your real Self. As you gradually get more and more anchored in that, it expands into infinity. What you're experiencing is a drop which is your Atma (the individual soul), and as you go deeper you'll experience that the drop - your Atma - has always in reality been an ocean which is Paramatama, the sole ocean within which everything exists. Then when you return from the experience of realizing that you are the ocean, that awareness will be with you at all times even when your eyes are wide open. A person in this state is called a Jiwanmukta (awakened while still in body).

(Note: When the eyes are closed and the mind is emptied of thoughts for even only 5 seconds - because anyone can achieve that for at least 5 seconds - what remains in the absence of thoughts is an awareness that you exist. The sensation of the eyes is a bit of a distraction at first even though they're closed, but getting past that gradually, if one pays attentions, the subtle awareness that you exist reveals itself as originating in the chest area, in the heart rather than the mind).

Q. Does the mind in such a person completely dissolve, leaving only the spiritual heart as the sole guide or discriminating faculty?
A. No, the mind doesn't completely disappear, it remains, but in a purified state. The mind before, being the cause of your ego had become your master, now it becomes the dutiful servant of the heart (your real Self). Your real Self is not the body, or mind but spirit (consciousness) which has it's origin in your spiritual heart. That spirit is everywhere though, but in your body you'll find it's root in your heart.

Q. How do you function after the mind has been purified to reveal the underlying source substance of all reality?
A. Your spiritual heart determines the direction to go, while the mind analyzes, dissects and figures out the best way to get from point A to point B. Again the mind doesn't determine direction or desired end, only how to get there within the dream world. Through simran and meditation, the mind becomes one pointed making it transparent and acutely sharp, but because it's conditioning has been thinned out almost completely dissolving the ego, it becomes a complete servant of the heart, which is your real Self and one with the Infinite. God resides in every heart, persevere and surrender to that and you're free.

Q. You're referring to the spiritual heart slightly to the right, not the physical organ to the left?
A. Yes, the spiritual heart is consciousness, from that comes the shakti which animates the mind and your body.

Q. Is the ego completely dissolved or some portion is left in order for you to be able to keep your feet on the physical plane?
A. A very small trace of ego is left after you recognize the unity of all creation. However that small amount of ego is so transparent that a Self realized saint is unmoved by whatever happens on this plane, having recognized the truth. And that small trace of ego is there by the choice of the saints so that they can function on this physical plane and fulfill their hukam, otherwise they would be on another plane, and not in their body.

Q. What does one do in that state? Realizing that all this is eternal leela (God's play), simply do the appropriate thing at the appropriate time, simple natural actions, lead a natural spontaneous flowing life, following the spiritual heart without too much thinking in the mind, as espoused in Gurbani and the Yoga Vasistha?
A. Yes, that and if there's a specific mission to also fulfill your hukam (honoring the will of God).

Q. Some people prefer to think of God in human form as a saint or avtar, my perception without intention happens to be of the Infinite in the formless state, as spirit or indivisible consciousness that is manifest within everything. My frame of reference keeps returning to the central point that everything is God, so what I wanted to ask you is, is there anything wrong with this angle of vision, or is there a better way to approach all this? Am I doing anything wrong, should anything be changed?
A. No, there's nothing wrong with thinking God is everything, it's very good. And no, there's no need to change anything, continue doing whatever you want.

Q. Some mystics have given others an experience by a simple touch, can you give me the experience of samadhi?
A. (Babaji smiles and says): Via simran, it will come by itself.

Q. It's a psychological truth that you actually become whatever your dominant thought is, whatever you think about all the time, that becomes your reality, but how would you personally define the purpose or benefit of doing simran?
A. Without simran you are like a little child lost in a mela (fairground/festival) and can easily lose your way or be easily overwhelmed by all the diverse rides, games, sights and sounds. The only obstacle to realizing your true nature is your ego, and the ego is only a child of your mind which is only made up of thoughts. Simran gradually makes your mind one pointed on one thought, until it purifies the mind so that it dissolves and becomes transparent enough to reveal your true underlying nature. After that you are like the child who returns to the playground holding a finger of your Father's (God's) hand. Then you can go on any ride you want without ever again losing your way in the fairground or getting overwhelmed with all the attractions, sights and sounds, and for the first time are fully able to enjoy the mela (fairground/festival) as a free person realizing it for what it is.

Q. Although I already have a mantra, would you like to give me one of your choice to be used for simran?
A. Were you initiated into the mantra?

Q. Yes, by a female mystic called Ammachi a year and half ago.
A. In that case holy initiation once is enough, and it's better to stick with the first one because initiation is a very sacred thing, and also because there's no difference since the shakti (life force/energy) via all the differing initiations from diverse spiritual paths comes from always the same source. The words of the mantra are irrelevant, the essential invisible thing is the shakti that was transferred and that is put into motion every time you recite it silently within.

Q. I have a firm belief in the concept that - praise or blame, both are the same, since the source substance of both is the same one Infinite - and that as a result we should be even and balanced inside in both situations. The praise part is easy to get a handle on, but blame is of course always a little more difficult, so I prayed for some practice on this front. Is it OK to be even and balanced inside in the event of blame or abuse, or should one be in bliss even in that?
A. It's very good to be even within in the event of blame or abuse, remaining even and balanced is a very high state. Beyond that later on comes a state where you are in bliss even during blame, but that's going deeper still.

Q. Why is there still so much suffering and poverty in India for so many?
A. Because where you have extreme good as in the case of all the Mahatamas and enlightened saints, you must also have extreme bad to balance it all. Everything in the universe is a perfect balance. Here in America, you don't have extreme good, and hence you also don't have extreme bad, although you do have bad. It takes more of the apparently bad to outweigh the good since the apparently good is always more powerful than bad. So India is very extreme on both ends for a completely perfect balance between the two. On the surface of India, you see only the apparently bad, but below the surface India has the highest good too in the form of all it's awakened sages, who have always been beneficial to the whole planet. That's the country that has produced all the enlightened sages and given the world all it's religions.

Q. What do you see as the biggest problem in India today?
A. Lack of education and negative thinking.

Q. Do men in India treat their women better these days, or is divorce becoming more prevalent there?
A. The ideal is one thing, but unfortunately the reality is generally something else. The reality is that if the women of India had economic independence as generally do the women here, then India would lead the whole world for divorces. It's only because of majboori (economic difficulty, mutual need for security) that couples stick together, there's often not true love or mutual respect as the base of the marriage. But here in America, the majboori isn't there, but there's a big lack of commitment. A marriage formed in the mutual love of God is the highest.

Q. Is it true that the purpose of all religion is to simply realize your real self, and nothing else?
A. Absolutely true, that's why in Gurbani it says many times "Aapna mul pashaano" (recognize your true nature/know thyself, the source substance/substratum of your very existence). All the rest of religion is just preparation for that, to mature and make us ripe for the real work which is to stop being distracted by externals, dive within our own heart and realize our true nature which is purely spiritual, not physical. The true nature of everything and everyone is spiritual, the whole universe appears in the spirit of Wahe Guru (the Infinite) who is the sole reality in all things.

Q. Guru means anyone or anything that dispels the darkness of ignorance. It's said that there can and will be many gurus in many forms, including books and communication via dreams, but that for each person there is precisely one Sat Guru (highest guide), so how do you recognize the Sat Guru?
A. Sat Guru is the one that takes you all the way to anand (bliss).

Q. Is the real nature of the guru with form (human body) or without form?
A. Without form (infinite spirit, consciousness). As a result all the true Gurus are one.

Q. Is it better to do just simran, meditation or both?
A. Meditation is like winding up a clock in the morning, giving you the momentum to do your simran the whole day. One is fine, both together is better.

Q. Is contemplating God as being within everyone and everything at all times the same as doing simran?
A. Contemplating God at all times is good, but without simran it's difficult to progressively ascend the ladder of consciousness.

(The effects of simran are based upon the psychological truth that you become whatever your dominant thought is, since our reality is always colored & formed by whatever we saturate our consciousness with for the majority of the time).

Q. Are there other planes of existence or dimensions where there is more peace or bliss?
A. Yes, there are planes where there is nothing but bliss, then there are some below. Compared to the spiritual planes, this plane of existence is nothing, the happiness here is nothing compared to the happiness on the spiritual plane. But before getting there the soul has to evolve through many life forms. Towards the end that soul will once again be put in a human body for one or two more lifetimes, and will be given a role whereby it does nothing but physical seva for all from youth to old age and death, in order for that soul to get past theory and completely experience that God is truly equally within everyone and everything, that everything is God.

Q. What's the deal with people touching your feet, how do you feel about that, is that good or bad?
A. When they do it, shakti is transferred through this body to them, but I never ask anyone to touch my feet, because God is equally within everyone. However no matter how many times I asked people not to do this in India, they would still insist on doing it perhaps for their own peace of mind or comfort. As a result, after some time I became quiet on the issue if people continued to want to do that. But it doesn't make any difference to me, my role is to help them realize that God is equally within everyone and that the real jewel is within their own heart. That their highest happiness and what they are actually looking for is really inside their own heart, but not many are ready for that immediately, preferring someone or something tangible outside. So certain disciplines or rituals are given to them according to their nature to thin out their conditioning, until gradually they're ripe to recognize this truth and work towards realizing it by finally diving within their own consciousness via meditation and simran.

Q. If the public donates funds for a public project to an organization such as a Gurdwara (Sikh church) set-up for the public good, should all donated expenditures be fully publicly displayed, or kept private to prevent or minimize fights for control of the organization and money?
A. People call me a saint, I didn't win any elections for this position nor do I have any term limitations, but still on principle we show publicly in our monthly magazine where every last rupee came from and precisely how and where all public funds are expended for all the various public programs such as the de-addiction centers, blood camps, eye camps, food and clothing for the poor, etc. Everything is done in broad daylight, we even ask people to write us each month to tell us if we're doing anything wrong, and if their point is invalid we explain our reasoning, and if their point is valid we openly admit our mistake and make an immediate change. We encourage open dialogue, suggestions and criticism because our role is to serve the sangat (congregation), not vice versa.

Q. How would you define your role?
A. To lead people's hearts to God, to join them with God, that's my only role. Sometimes that will be achieved through external social service, sometimes through devotion or an emphasis on meditation or through gyan (dispersing knowledge of the truth). The doctor has to adapt his medicine according to the differing needs and nature of the patient.

Q. (Doug asks): Why do saint's who are able to cure thousands of incurable diseases themselves get ill?
A. Because they take your illnesses onto themselves.

Q. Have you had any experience in curing people of physical illnesses?
A. Thousands. In many cases doctors send us their hopeless cases and their lives are saved, and as a result their faith in God is often transformed and becomes unshakable. This all happens due to karma.

Q. How do you heal such people?
A. Through a blessing, we have one day a week where anyone can come to see us for any reason, whether it be a question or illness. We have a line of thousands of people, and I meet each person individually so it takes a long time.

Q. When you have a line of thousands and each one comes to you individually and you bless him or her, what really is going on, how do feel inside, what do you see and what are you transferring to that person in reality? Is it just faith or is there a genuine transfer of something?
A. When I see each person, I can see within their consciousness what they need. And there is a genuine transfer of shakti (life force/love), but that shakti isn't mine, it just flows through me, this body is only a channel.

Q. How does that shakti flow from you to the devotee, from what point within the body?
A. It flows from the hands, feet, knees, feet, eyes, mouth and knees.

Q. How can it flow from the knees?
A. Sometimes a devotee will touch my feet and his head accidentally touches my knees, then shakti is transferred. But really the whole body is a broadcast center, those are just the main points of transfer.

Q. Do you always equally transfer the same amount of shakti to every devotee?
A. Yes, the broadcaster always gives the same amount to everyone, the difference is only in the receiver. If the receiver lacks faith or has a very big ego, he or she receives very little shakti, but it's only due to their own inability to receive. The broadcaster always gives equally to all.

Q. Are there ever any special exceptions?
A. Very rarely but yes sometimes I get a hukam (spiritual command) that a certain individual is to get an extra strong shot of shakti (life force/love) due to their karma, and I comply.

Q. What if someone comes to you with an illness, and they got that due to their karma, do you still cure the illness? What if their karma was to forbear the illness due to some prior negative actions, what then?
A. If it's their karma to be healed, my hukam is to heal them. If their karma is to forbear that illness due to past transgressions, due to their karma, then I give them a shot of shakti which gives them the wisdom to realize the error of their ways, and the strength to change, but the illness is left alone. Again, this is not my shakti or decision, it's all according to the hukam from above. These sessions are scheduled to last only 2 hours but due to the size of the crowd usually go on for 10 to 12 hours non-stop until every last person has been attended to.

Q. Considering that you're standing there for 10 to 12 hours non-stop, attending to each person without taking any break or eating anything, don't you feel tired or hungry?
A. No, you never feel tired or hungry when you're giving. When you are taking or being selfish, you will always get tired after a certain point, but you never get tired when giving. Rather than losing energy you gain strength through giving, because what you're really giving or sharing is love, and when you give, love or energy does not decrease, but on the contrary expands.

Q. (Question asked by Kay) I have really bad dreams that the world is going to end soon, we're doing so many crazy things these days. What should I do about that?
A. Those who fear that the world will end should pray to God that it doesn't. That will make a difference. In reality this world will never end, existence never comes to an end. All this creation is happening on such an endlessly infinite scale that the mind can't even begin to comprehend the scope of God's eternal creation. Forms and circumstances change, but life, existence never had a beginning or birth and will never come to an end or death.

Q. (Kay asks): When will you get married?
A. (Babaji smiles and pointing upwards says): I'm already married.

Q. (Kay asks): But what about a family, won't you miss out on having a family without marriage?
A. (Babaji replies quietly): I have a beautiful and very large family. Many people with their hearts full of pure love call me Son or Brother, and then many others call me Father, even though they are many decades older than me.

Q. (Sikh devotee present on this evening asks): The 10th Guru formed the Khalsa, and then before he left said that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib would be our only Guru after his departure. These days some Sikhs wear the five external symbols of a member of the Khalsa, many don't but follow the teachings of Gurbani. Do you have to have that appearance to be a Sikh?
A. You should do whatever your Guru asks you to do.

(Sikh devotee replies): Yes, but Gurbani says nothing about the Khalsa, nor about any rituals, nor about any type of appearances to keep. In fact Gurbani says in some places that appearances are useless, that only truth within the heart alone counts in God's court.

(Babaji remains silent)

Q. How does one reconcile the need for a certain external appearance as set by the 10th Guru and necessary during a time of political oppression resulting in violence, and at the same time follow only Gurbani (the main Sikh scripture) as your only living Guru as proclaimed by the same 10th Guru, considering that Gurbani denounces religious appearances & external rituals as being useless, and states that truth leading to the purity of the heart alone counts?
A. (Babaji replies quietly): The essential thing on the spiritual path is to settle your mind at one place, and make it one pointed. One place is not higher or lower than another, but whatever place you pick, you must sincerely settle and make your mind one pointed upon that place and whatever your chosen Guru or ideal says on that path. As a result your mann (mind) will become purified, transparent, and the end result is always the same because there is only one end. So, if for you, your highest Guru is the 10th Guru, then do everything EXACTLY as He said. If your Guru says walk naked, then walk naked. If on the other hand if your Sat Guru is only the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, then do exactly what that says. The important thing is to settle at one place and become completely one pointed on whatever your Guru prescribes so that you become purified and progress.

Q. You said that Mahatamas (enlightened souls) guide the Atma (individual soul), and Paramatama (the Infinite) guides the Mahatamas. How does this manifest on your own personal front?
A. Whatever I say spiritually is not my thought or idea, it flows from above through this body. To be very honest with you, sometimes things come out of my mouth that astonish even me, because I know I'm not capable of such deep insights. This body is only a channel, the real power or shakti comes from above, but that shakti being Wahe Guru Himself is in reality everywhere, both inside and outside, above and below, to the right and left, front and behind, here and now it's by It's own will chosen this body as one channel to express It's love. Again, none of this is my doing, and this type of thing is happening in many places in the universe, not just through me, this body is only a channel for the grace of the Infinite which is everywhere.

Q Considering that you're working from the moment you get up to the moment you go to sleep, don't you ever get tired or fed-up with all the demands that are made on you?
A. Yes, when people ask the same selfish questions day after day, you do tend to get a little jaded.

Q. What do you do then?
A. Then I go into deep meditation to anchor even more deeply into my real Self, and come out basically completely refreshed.

Q. I hope I'm not tiring you with all these questions? If you wish I'll go now and we can maybe carry on another day?
A. No that's not a problem. When people ask selfish self centered questions, I'll still answer them or give them a blessing, but I may not like it on the inside but everyone is always blessed equally. But when someone asks unselfish or high-minded dharmic questions, consider it for me as the deepest relaxation. You will get tired before I will. (And he was right, at 4am I was tired and had to leave for sleep while he was still as fresh as a baby).

Q. Do you eat or sleep at least in small doses on a regular basis, because I haven't seen you doing much of either during the past few days?
A. I eat very little because otherwise the body gets heavy and the mind sinks into it, making it more difficult to elevate one's consciousness to more subtle higher things. And I've never slept much from childhood.

Q. So what do you do all night?
A. I usually just sit on the bed with my arms crossed, or I do simran, or if others are up we'll do kirtan (singing the praises of God through spiritual songs).

Q. Do you do kirtan for prolonged periods?
A. If I had my choice we'd be doing kirtan all day and all night long, but it's my hukam to run all these projects and do all the seva, but kirtan is very sweet. I would do it at all times if I had permission.

Q. What's the most important thing on the spiritual path?
A. Pursuing the truth, nothing is more important that that. If a man can prove to me that God doesn't exist, I'm willing to follow that man, because truth is all that counts.

Babaji, thank you very much for your time and your frankness in answering our questions.

TERMINOLOGY:

Atma: soul/spirit that resides within the human form, thus animating and giving it life.

Gurbani: the main Sikh scripture, considered to embody the living spirit of the Infinite and considered the highest Guru within Sikhism.

Gurdwara: Sikh church/temple.

Gyan: knowledge/wisdom.

Hukam: spiritual command, the will of God, direction from the Infinite.

Ik Oankaar: spiritual phrase meaning there is only one Creator

Jagrat: the waking state, one of the four states of consciousness, being waking dream, sleeping dream, dreamless sleep and awakening from the first three to the sole reality which is known as turiya and additional differing labels.

Karma: the concept of what goes around comes around, the sum total of all past actions determining your direction.

Khalsa (saint/soldier brotherhood that takes initiation, maintains a specific appearance, follows certain rituals and abstains from certain foods. The ideal of a member of the Khalsa to become a perfect balance between a saint who becomes one with God and a soldier who upholds justice.

Kirtan: singing of spiritual songs.

Mahatama: enlightened souls, spirits, saintly beings residing on a spiritual plane.

Majboori: difficulty, i.e. economic difficulty.

Mann: mind.

Mantra: a word or set of words recited either verbally or mentally to make the mind one pointed, hence thinning out it's dense dualistic conditioning.

Maya: the world illusion perceived as real due to ignorance. Maya is to see the real as unreal and unreal as real.

Mela: Fairground or festival.

Paramatama: another label for God, the Infinite.

Samadhi - when body limited consciousness unites and becomes one with infinite consciousness.

Sangat: congregation of Sikhs.

Shakti: power, energy, life force, force of love.

Simran: Making the mind one pointed by focusing on one thing, such as a thought or word or set of words.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Same as above - the main Sikh scripture, considered to embody the living spirit of the Infinite and considered the highest Guru within Sikhism.

Sufna: dream.

Tapasaya: spiritual austerities or disciplines such as reciting a mantra or sitting down traditional meditation.

Wahe Guru: another label for God, the Infinite